Sadia Mirza welcomes Kaitlin Clemens to share her journey into incident response and cybersecurity, transitioning from plaintiff-side litigation to crisis management in the cybersecurity space.
In the latest episode of Unauthorized Access, host Sadia Mirza welcomes Kaitlin Clemens, the newest member of Troutman Pepper's Incidents + Investigations team. Kaitlin shares her journey into incident response and cybersecurity, transitioning from plaintiff-side litigation to crisis management in the cybersecurity space. She opens up about the challenges and rewards of her role, shedding light on the critical importance of having a supportive team.
Kaitlin also offers her insights on balancing a demanding career with personal life, especially as a mother. At one point, Sadia and Kaitlin become so engrossed in their conversation that they forget they are recording, giving listeners a rare opportunity to eavesdrop on their everyday office banter.
Curious to know what makes these IR attorneys enjoy their jobs so much? Tune in to hear their true and authentic selves.
Unauthorized Access: The Team Continues to Grow: A Conversation With Our Newest Colleague, Kaitlin Clemens
Host: Sadia Mirza
Guest: Kaitlin Clemens
Recorded: 6/10/24
Air Date: 6/26/24
Sadia Mirza:
Welcome to Unauthorized Access. The podcast that focused on the human side of cybersecurity. Today, I am super excited to introduce the world to what's probably like, I don't know, 12 of my followers to Kaitlin Clemens, who recently joined Troutman Pepper's Incidents and Investigations Team. Kaitlin, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast, but also, more importantly, as part of the team.
Kaitlin Clemens:
Me too. I'm so excited to be here. I mean, I can't believe – I mean, right before we started, we talked about it's been almost a month and it's been amazing. It's flown by, but I also feel like I've just always been home here already. It's wonderful.
Sadia Mirza:
Kaitlin, we feel the exact same way, and the world should know that the moment that I met you I already knew that you were meant to be part of this team. Just because you have a kindness in you that I really love and your personality really shines through. Honestly, I knew we were a match made in heaven the moment we met. Kaitlin, I'm sure prior to joining Troutman, I'm assuming that this podcast was the number one thing that you listened to, so you know all about–
Kaitlin Clemens:
It was.
Sadia Mirza:
It was, right? Okay. Perfect. The whole point of this podcast is to highlight people, like what we do is, highlight the people in incident response and cybersecurity. Before you came on, I heard so many wonderful things about you, and so I could go on and on about everything that I've heard, but I wanted this to be a chance for people to hear from you. You probably have been able to tell that, very often we never talk about work, and I'm just interested in all your personal life, and everything else. So, tell us, tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and even beyond your professional life, because I'm very nosy, and I like to know everything.
Kaitlin Clemens:
Well, likewise, our first conversation very much revolved around our kids and eating pancakes and croissants. I knew immediately that I wanted to come over to the team. That's true. From a professional standpoint, I transitioned to incident response in cybersecurity about four or five years ago. Before that, I was in plaintiff side litigation, doing catastrophic injury, and medical malpractice, things like that. I've always known that I wanted to do something kind of in crisis management. In law school, as nerdy as it sounds, I wanted to be a mediator, that's all I wanted to do. Then, I realized very quickly that being a mediator is like not a thing. You do that on the side, but I was really into no fault compensation schemes, which sounds crazy. But I think, what I ultimately learned, incident response kind of just fell in my lap, and it was a new opportunity and I realized that I wanted to kind of be the calm for people in the storm, and really kind of help people in their worst moments in their professional careers a lot of times. And, it gets really personal with incident response too. So, I transitioned, I really loved the job. It's chaotic, it's insane sometimes, but I just really felt at home and I just kind of grew into it. So, I was at an incident response firm that did a lot of it and that's all we really did. I was there for four years, made partner, then transitioned here to Troutman, so that's kind of how I came here.
Sadia Mirza:
We're going to get all into your path into cybersecurity, but I need to go back to your child. More importantly and very importantly, we skipped right over that. So, tell us more about him.
Kaitlin Clemens:
I have a 15-month-old, his name is Callum. He is a feral heathen, but he's also super fun. We buy our rotisserie chicken for him every single week, so he eats every day.
Sadia Mirza:
Okay, very good.
Kaitlin Clemens:
But yes, it's just, my weekends and nights are – my husband and I just hanging out with Callum, and it's been the most fun. Motherhood is an insane time. He was born a little early, so we went through all of that, but it's just been – he's so much fun. He's into everything. He climbs everything, won't leave our poor dog, Molly alone. But yes, he's the best.
Sadia Mirza:
Kaitlin, there's probably a lot of attorneys, and we've talked about this on the podcast too about caregiving and cybersecurity. Actually, there was a podcast right before this one, Sherri was on, Sherri Davidoff was on and it was focused specifically on this. Specially given our practice in incident response, it's a demanding job. If anyone says anything differently, they're lying. It is a demanding job and requires a lot of you, and it's really not something you can plan for. But, I want to know what are your – what are your strategies or your tips? Do you feel like you've been able to balance both? What are you working on or generally, what thoughts do you have when it comes to making sure you're fully and wholly there for Callum, but also making sure that you're doing you know the best that you can and bringing your best self to work?
Kaitlin Clemens:
It' not easy. It's incredibly difficult. I'm still working on it. I think the most important thing is to find your people. Find the people who understand and get it. I've been very fortunate throughout my career to find incredibly supportive people. Now that I'm here in Troutman with you Sadia, it's just – I mean, I know we've been on calls. You say, "Oh my gosh. It's 5:30 Eastern Time. Do you want to go out and play with Callum?" I'm like, "No. We're good. We're good."
Sadia Mirza:
Yes, you absolutely do want to go outside and play with Callum. Yes, that's what I want someone to do.
Kaitlin Clemens:
And I do, but I think it's really important to have your people at work. And, I'm very fortunate to have an incredibly supportive husband and spouse. He knows how important my career is, and how seriously I take my work. I think that's really, really important. But the balance is then, when I do have the times to breathe in those moments, and I know that there's not something on fire happening, I have my phone nearby, but I'm not constantly checking it. I have an hour and a half every day after daycare to spend with Callum and focus on him. Sometimes I'm by myself, because my husband, Drew's in health care. So, he has a crazy schedule. Some nights, I'm putting Callum down by myself, and like, I have 90 minutes. Just focus these 90 minutes, and then I can get back to work, and I usually do afterwards. Again, it's not easy. I do break that rule sometimes, but it's been working so far. So, we'll see. I'll let you know if I have anything else.
Sadia Mirza:
So far, what I've set up for myself is, I've tried to work early in the morning so that I can have that time. But I think it's – well, at least, I struggle with it. The job is very consuming, right? Sometimes I almost feel like it becomes like addictive. You're just constantly like, "What's going on in my inbox?" This is when I'm like the worst mom in the world, is when my three-year-old, when she's talking to me, and I'll be like looking at something. She'll say something like, "No, mama, talk to me." Oh my God, my heart breaks. I'm like, "Oh my God." That for me is like, okay, I need to stop, because like a three-year-old is like realizing it. I'm still working on that, like trying to give myself. "This is 100% of my time, I'm going to give to you. When I can, I'm going to give it to you." It's easier to say, than to actually do it. But I feel like it's something – a lot of people still struggle with. But I 100% agree that the people make it easier. I'm happy to hear like, so many people did it for me. Then, Ron did it for me. Ron did it for me.
Again, I can never have a podcast without saying something wonderful about him, because, he did so much for me. I don't even think he realized it like that, letting me be a mom, and letting me prioritize that, is actually, it makes me a better attorney. It makes me more invested in my job, it makes me want to show up here. As opposed to somebody saying that I'm being less or I'm not showing up fully or completely. In some ways, it inspires me to do more. When someone actually pushes me to go be with mine.
I'm glad from the 30 days that you've been here, hopefully, it's not just a honeymoon, I promise. Like we are, I said this at the beginning, and I say this to everyone that, I want to do for you what I hope everyone would do for me. So, hopefully, that will continue. Your path about cybersecurity, it just fell in your lap? I need to comment about that. Because I think, even I'm not calling us old, because I'm very young. It just fell into our lap, right? We didn't actually wake up and think we were going to be IR attorneys. We somehow, if you talk to like new, the incoming classes, all of them actually woke up, and they're like, "No, I'm going to be a privacy attorney." It's a totally different shift, like they were planning for this, and they took classes about this.
Kaitlin Clemens:
It's crazy to me. I really liked IP when I was in law school, but I don't have a science background. I knew I was never going to be in patent prosecution, like patent litigation was even difficult, because you need that science background, and it would have been a really difficult road. So, they always said, it's going to be a long path for you if that's what you want to do, try to meander, get a litigation experience. That was always my end goal. Then, I saw incident response and privacy kind of as an IP adjacent. That's what convinced me to go that path, then I fell in love with it, and I'm here, and I don't see myself leaving it. It is kind of crazy to see that there's now courses being taught in IR. It's insane to me.
Sadia Mirza:
You teach an excellent course in IR. First of all, I think the world probably knows this about you, and this is part of it. Is like, you are an excellent teacher and an excellent trainer. I'll just say, this is probably going to sound like a podcast where I'm just like bragging about the Troutman team, but yes, that's exactly what I feel like doing. Even things with you coming. I think it's very important to learn from one another. There's things that you've learned at your prior firm, things that you guys may have done differently things that we do differently. But bringing in and making it like the best of both worlds.
I think there's always room for growth and I just love – like a lot of times on call, I love watching you in action. One because, I have this complex and I'm like, "Oh." I don't know what you're going to think of me, but I'm just, I love learning. I love watching you in action, because in my mind, I'm like, "Oh, these are good things." Hopefully, at some point, you'll feel that about me too. I don't know. I love that about your training, and maybe that's some of your, the momness in you comes out too. You have a very motherly nature, so I think that that's – I don't know, I get on, it's not like – but you do an excellent training job.
Kaitlin Clemens:
Thank you. I mean, I also just fangirled over you on your CCPA explanation. So, clearly, I'm a huge fan, and I told you, you should be a teacher.
Sadia Mirza:
Yes. That is like a secret skills that I have, that I can quote any section of the CCPA. I have tried many times to leave that life behind me, but I don't think it's ever going to end. Because, honestly, I love it. At the end of the day, even when I try, if some of the privacy compliance work, because I – this is how I explain myself. I am very good at privacy compliance, that I love incident response. Truthfully, I try to do the things that I love. But once you get me in the privacy compliance zone, I'm totally into it, I'm totally into it, and I can't really shake that part off me. If I ever had a choice, though, between an IR matter and a compliance matter, I would always pick that IR matter.
I know the part of your job that you love, and it's like just so shocking to me. It's like data pile analysis. I, for the love of me, like you know my hatred towards spreadsheets, Excel. It's just not something. But like, you love it, you absolutely love playing with data. Actually, it's a very nice complement to this group. I didn't know how much I needed you. I realized how much joy you have in doing that part of the response. Is there any part of it that you could do without in the IR world? Is there some part of the job that you really just don't like?
Kaitlin Clemens:
How do I say this, the manufactured chaos that comes with incident response. There's the chaos, there's the threat actor communication, that's just so unpredictable, and it's a very high stressor for anybody. There's just the beginning of an incident response matter drives me insane, because my urge is just always to silo, and organize, and get everybody, it's herding cats sometimes. That's nothing against a client or vendors. It's just the nature of it. That, like herding cats' aspect, in the beginning drives me a little nuts. But it's something that I also, on the other hand, I do enjoy it, because it's fun to guide everybody through that. Again, being the calm in the storm. It's just, there's a lot of things happening at once. I get very honed in at that point, and that's when the rest of the world kind of disappears, I get very focused on the job.
It's both a part that I could do without, but also love, because it's just, once you put in the work in the beginning to get everybody prepared, and get all your workstreams organized. I mean, that's crucial for any incident response.
Sadia Mirza:
I mean, when you said manufactured chaos, what I actually thought about, I guess, I would say, like the unnecessary chaos. For example, you and me had been on matters, where it just like – some personalities, like stopping difficult for no reason, where we don't need to be difficult. The goal we're all working in the same direction, even if we have different work streams, it's the unnecessary complications that come along the way. Some of that is part of the herding cats, making sure people are responding. In our roles, I feel like that's our job, following up along the way. If everyone could just also equally just be working on that path, it would make it a lot – it's just like the unnecessary things that I think that – I just feel like, "Oh, having to keep moving people back." This is a podcast, so all these things I'm doing with my hands, Kaitlin, no one's going to see.
Kaitlin Clemens:
Oh, yes, and I'm nodding too. I just realized that I'm nodding, and smiling, and then like not making any noise.
Sadia Mirza:
No, no. We're like, oh, whatever, how many listeners, me and Kaitlin, we have lots of facial expression, lots of things on our hands, but you're not going to be able to see any this. But you should, know we're smiling and laughing. So, if I remember, you had mentioned the croissant and pancakes, and we bonded over that. It's because my life truly revolves around eating. What usually all I'm thinking about most of the time is, even when I'm eating, what am I going to be eating next. It's just where my brain goes. So, I need to know, I'm coming to Philly soon. Andrew is going to accept our invite at some point to have dinner with us. Then, I'm going to come and we're going to eat your most favorite place in the world in Philly, I guess that's not true. Your favorite place in Philly, so what is it?
Kaitlin Clemens:
It's a tie. My favorite restaurant that I would go to for like a night out would be kind of Cuba Libre. It's in Old City. I guess you consider it Old City. It's amazing. You go on and it's magical. The atmosphere is so gorgeous. It turns into a salsa dancing club, I think on like a Thursday night. But it has the best Cuban food I've ever had and it's just incredible. So, Cuba Libre really tops the list. South Philly Barbacoa is also really good. And if anybody has ever seen the story of Christine the chef, she's on Chef's Table, she's amazing. South Philly Barbacoa is also wonderful, but I don't know if it's where we can sit down, it has picnic tables outside, so I don't know if that would work with.
Sadia Mirza:
But you and me will go there, we will. That won't be where we take Andrew, but Cuba Libra, am I'm pronouncing it correctly?
Kaitlin Clemens:
Cuba Libre
Sadia Mirza:
Oh, Cuba Libre. Okay. What is your favorite meal there? This is the level of detail I need to know.
Kaitlin Clemens:
Man, so I haven't been to Cuba Libre since before Callum. The ceviche is phenomenal. I'm trying to think of what else I have there. I usually go during the restaurant week, quite honestly, so they had different stuff every time. As we're doing this, I'm looking up the menu because I need to tell you this.
Sadia Mirza:
But again, the people can't see you. I see you doing that.
Kaitlin Clemens:
I know. No, this is very important because I can't leave you hanging –
Sadia Mirza:
Yes, I know.
Kaitlin Clemens:
– on what is – the crab guacamole is really good. The vaca frita is what I usually get. It’s the braised brisket, really, really good. White rice, black beans is phenomenal.
Sadia Mirza:
Okay. Is this close to the Beazely office because that's where we're going.
Kaitlin Clemens:
I don't think so.
Sadia Mirza:
Okay, we'll see. We'll still go there. This is public announcement for Andrew, that that's where we're going and we're having the brisket. I also want everyone to know that I gave Kaitlin a whole like two minutes to prepare for this podcast, all of these questions. But I told you that the time goes by very fast, and here we are almost to the end. I like to end these podcasts with – and I care a lot about. I say I like this industry because of the people. We have a lot of good friends, a lot of connections. And, so the last question I want to end with is, if you could highlight anyone in our industry, either because you're thinking that they're just so good at their job, or they're just like a very nice human, you just love them, whatever it is, for whatever reason, who would you highlight and why?
Kaitlin Clemens:
In line with the data analytics trend, Jenna Rooney over at Arete is phenomenal. I've worked with her multiple times. She was one of the first people to congratulate me on the move over here. She's just a good human being, and we've nerded out about data analytics on calls on very complicated matters. I just really enjoy working with her. So, she's one that I would call out.
Sadia Mirza:
Okay, you are so right. She did. She reached out to, and like congratulated me about you. I'm like, "Yes, nobody is more excited than me having Kaitlin come over." So, I fully agree. Maybe, Jenna, maybe this will be public announcement for Jenna that we need you on the podcast, because that's how we pass it along.
Kaitlin, I know I say it every – I mean, I think I say it very often. I want you know happy I am to have you on this team. I talked to all of our associates and the rest of the other partners here. Your personality shines through, and like I have been very intentional about growing this group. I want it to be with people that I love, and that I can relate to, and just have that kindness in them. That is 100% you. So, I just want to say, we are so happy to have you here. This was basically like a regular conversation you and me have every day.
Kaitlin Clemens:
I was going to say.
Sadia Mirza:
This doesn’t feel like we just recorded a podcast. This feels like this is exactly what we spoke about this morning. I'm very excited for hopefully many, many, many more years of this to come. So, welcome to the team and thank you for making time to be on the podcast.
Kaitlin Clemens:
Of course. You know I feel the absolute same. I mean, it has been a pretty seamless transition for me, I just never felt more welcomed and loved. Like I said, I fangirl over you and the team every day.
Sadia Mirza:
I want you to find better people to fangirl over, but yes. I want you to aspire to bigger, better things, but thank you.
Kaitlin Clemens:
Yes. Thanks for having me.
Sadia Mirza:
Thank you for everyone listening. I hope you subscribe and I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you.
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