In this episode, Sadia welcomes Sherri Davidoff, CEO of LMG Security, to discuss the challenges and experiences associated with being a primary caregiver in the cybersecurity space.
Unauthorized Access, our privacy and cybersecurity-focused podcast, spotlights the human side of the cybersecurity industry. In this episode, Sadia welcomes Sherri Davidoff, CEO of LMG Security, to discuss the challenges and experiences associated with being a primary caregiver in the cybersecurity space. Whether as a mother, father, elder-care provider, or in any other role, this is a topic that many individuals in the cybersecurity community struggle with, but go to great lengths to conceal. Both Sadia and Sherri pause to share their personal journeys and highlight the individuals who have supported them in excelling in both their professional and caregiving roles (spoiler alert — for Sadia, that person is Ron Raether). Sherri, reflecting on the need for more flexibility, notes that virtual opportunities, which had expanded during the pandemic, are now beginning to decrease as the world transitions back to a 'pre-pandemic' state. These opportunities broadened the accessibility of the cybersecurity industry, especially for those juggling demanding caregiving responsibilities.
Unauthorized Access: Caregivers in Cybersecurity
Host: Sadia Mirza
Guest: Sherri Davidoff
Sadia Mirza:
Welcome to Unauthorized Access, the podcast that's focused on the human side of cybersecurity. And, no, that's not intended to be a reference to the idea that humans are the weakest link in cybersecurity. Rather, this podcast is focused on shining a light on the wonderful people who make the industry what it is and talking about the issues that are important to them.
My name is Sadia Mirza and I'm a partner at Troutman Pepper. And I co-lead our Incidents and Investigations team. I am very excited today to be able to say that I'm joined by Sherri Davidoff, who I assume a lot of the listeners already know. But, Sherri, I'm going to give just a very quick brief introduction.
Sherri is the CEO of LMG Security and the author of three books, including Ransomware and Cyber Distortion and Data Breaches: Crisis and Opportunity. She is a GIAC Certified Forensic Examiner and penetration tester. And received her degree in computer science and electrical engineering from MIT.
Sherri, thank you so much for joining me today.
Sherri Davidoff:
Thank you so much for having me on. I have admired your work for a long time.
Sadia Mirza:
Sherri, okay. Well, that's exactly what I was going on to say about you, is that I have been following you and your career in cybersecurity for a very long time. And I honestly say anytime at Troutman, when we're thinking about expert or someone to bring in with more of a technical background and that higher-level expertise, you are always on the top of our list.
And I know we reached out and had many discussions about it. But you know what? That actually isn't the reason what prompted me to want to ask you to be on this podcast.
I know you recently shared with me an article that you wrote I think in 2022 and it was called Women in Cyber Security Need More Than Inspiration. Sherri, just that title, I knew that that article is right up my alley. And I was so inclined to open it and read it and figure out what it was about. And when I read it, it was so moving and so important and a topic that's not discussed at all.
And so, I can explain – I know what the topics about. But I wanted to give you an opportunity to share what is that article about at a high-level and then kind of the inspiration behind it.
Sherri Davidoff:
Yeah. Thanks so much, Sadia. What happened that triggered me to write that article was that I bumped into SANS president, Allan Paller, in an elevator at RSA years ago. I think it was 2020. Yes, it was the last RSA Conference before COVID.
And the reason I was coming in and he was going out was because I was late. And I didn't want to be late. I was trying to attend the women's networking event and the speaker party and they were both at the same time. They both overlapped. I was like, "I can do it. I can attend both."
I went to the women's networking reception and I just like almost missed him. Saw him in the elevator and he grabbed me by the elbow. Because we had seen each other over the years, talked over the years. And he said, "I want to talk to you after this because we need more women in cyber security. How do we get more mentors? We need more role models."
And I texted him later and I said, "Women need more than inspiration. We need these conferences to be accessible. We need things like the women's networking event to not be at the same time as the speaker party. And bigger picture, we need to really be thinking about the fact that the majority of caregivers are women. And if we're not taking that into account, we're missing these voices, we're missing these minds from our industry."
Sadia Mirza:
Sherri, that was – I guess what was not shocking to me, but like I followed you so closely for so long and the fact that I just recently discovered that you are a mom. It's something – and I don't know why that was shocking to me. But it's just something that I didn't know. But then I thought about like other women. And I guess sometimes it feels like women really have to go out of their way. And maybe not just women. It could be any caregiver. But they have to hide that part of their life.
Especially, if you're interviewing, the first thing you talk about is not the kids that you have. Because you don't want someone else – you don't want your employer to think that your kids are going to be an obstacle in terms of your career. And so, it feels like, I know for me, there's been moments where you kind of just like try to hide. It's almost like a blemish that we try to hide.
And I just wanted to hear more about have you felt that way? Because I should have known. I should have known that this was an issue that you tackled. But it's just something not talked about.
Sherri Davidoff:
Yeah. I mean, when you said when we were having a conversation before this that we have to hide our kids. I mean, that resonated with me. We have to physically hide them. God forbid, I can't onto a Zoom call. COVID really opened that up and made it a little bit more accessible.
But you're right. I mean, when you're interviewing or something like that, you don't want to lead out with I'm thinking of having kids or I'm having kids. And that's honestly like the number one reason why I started my own business. Because I hit this point in my career back around 2010 where I knew I wanted to start a family and I also knew that there would be no way, no way for me to move forward and grow in my career if I also had children and wanted to have that flexibility to be there when I wanted to be there.
Because there really at the time were not part-time highly technical jobs available. If I wanted to be an insert response I couldn't say, "Oh, my kid has a play. I can't go to that." And so, I ended up starting the company and really moving into more of a management role. And now I have the ability to pick and choose those technical opportunities. But my hope is that we can really help open some doors for other caregivers. Again, not just women. But anybody with those caregiving responsibilities.
Sadia Mirza:
And, sure, your article patches on it too. I think you talk about COVID and how it kind of started shifting things for caregivers. Can you expand on that a little bit? I know it was a tough time for everybody. But, actually, there was some positive things coming out of it. Right?
Sherri Davidoff:
Absolutely. I was a single parent for many years. And when I went to a conference, it was a big deal. I'd hire a sitter to be overnight with my kids and hope that the sitter would show up. And I had to make money at that conference. I couldn't spend money because it was already a big investment.
For about a decade, I couldn't take a class. And it was 2021 and I signed up for a Black Hat class that was running virtually that I had wanted to take for years. It was a physical penetration testing, a red team class. And I'm a penetration tester. I was really excited about it.
And I remember sitting down that morning and I honestly teared up. I realized I had not been able to take a class. And there's all these people. I'm a part of the black hat review board. And so, I'm looking at all these talks and reviewing all these training sessions and realizing that I myself will not be able to stay long enough away from my children to see a lot of those talks or to take those classes. And COVID opened those doors. It made it possible. And it's exciting to see that some of that is sticking around.
But you can see how, in a lot of cases, those doors are closing again. You're not seeing virtual speakers accepted as often. You're not seeing virtual training opportunities as often. I want to give a shout-out to the International Women's Cyber Alliance. I love you, guys. And I love that this is a group of women from around the country and around the world that meets virtually. There's all these faces of people that I rarely get to see. And we're able to see each other and still go home to our kids after that. And it's just a wonderful thing.
Sadia Mirza:
Sherri, I agree. I think I remember – well, one thing. This reminded me one time when with my third – I have three girls. And I talk about this all the time. And that's another separate topic. They're eight, six, and two. And I remember – my youngest, Fathima, when I was on maternity leave right around – it was probably about maybe like a month or two before I was supposed to come back and Net Diligence Philadelphia was happening. And there was a speaking opportunity.
And every time you go on maternity leave you also think about, "Well, how is this going to impact my career? Am I going to be forgotten? How am I going to stay relevant? I don't want people to think that I'm just gone." And so, I had taken – I took Fathima with me to Net Diligence.
Back then, it didn't even occur to me what I was – I wasn't making – I mean, I wish I had walked around with my baby in the stroller a lot more than I did. But I did go into the vendor – you know, that vendor area with all the swag and everything? I walked around with her in that conference for a little bit. And it was just something that I felt like – and my husband went to that one too. Because when I actually spoke, then Fathima stayed upstairs with him in the room. But we just have to do those things sometimes.
And I think people don't realize that like you want to go to those speak engagements but you can't just leave your baby, especially at that age. If you're breastfeeding, if you to be there, you have to be there. It's not just a part-time job.
But, Sherri, one thing that I loved about your article that I think is so important is the call to action. And your title was so good. Like, women in cyber security need more that inspiration. We need more than memes about how we can help each other. We need more than social events about just meeting and organizing. There needs to be some very intentional action to address this issue, to address there not being more women.
I have some thoughts, but I think you kind of alluded to it already. But what are some of your – you could say these are the top things that we should be focusing on from taking action. What do those things look like?
Sherri Davidoff:
Yeah. Well, first of all, you are such a Trailblazer. I love that you brought your baby to the conference. And that's sometimes the only way to stay involved. And you just don't see it often enough. At RSA, they have put in things like breastfeeding booths, which I love. Because there's that lack of – you can't physically be separated from your child at certain points. I love that you did it.
But you still don't see people walking around with babies. It's almost like a faux pax. And we need more brave women to be like, "Yes, I am bringing a child. And it's not a big deal." I'm really happy that you did that.
Sadia Mirza:
The call to action. What change do we need to see to address this issue?
Sherri Davidoff:
Yeah. I think we need to make, number one, some changes in the workplace to retain women and to make it clear it's a viable career path. And then we also need changes in how we network and how we make training accessible. It's not us about, "Oh, we need mentors."
And in preparation for this, I actually interviewed my dad. Hi, dad. Both of my parents are an inspiration to me. Both of them ran their own small businesses. And in my father's business, he had vast majority of women working at his accounting firm. And many of them had children. Many of them have been with him for 20, 30, 40 years.
And so, I called him this morning and I was like, "Dad, I'm talking about this topic and I think you know something about it. Tell me, how do you make an environment that is attractive for people who are caregivers?" And he said something that I thought was really insightful. He said, "We start with two premises. Number one, the premise that your family is first. It's important for every employee to know that your family is first and that the whole company knows that. And number two, that you're committed to the firm and you're doing a great job. Things like flexibility are not something you have to earn. You start from that. And then having things like flexibility. When you can, obviously, certain job roles. If you're supposed to answer a phone from 9 to 5, it's hard to say, "Okay, you could do that at 10 o'clock at night."
But a lot of professional job roles can absolutely be done at least partly after hours or different times. And so, I think having an environment where it's fine to say, "Hey, I got to pick up a kid." Or, I have a sick kid." Or, "My parent needs help. I'll be back online later." I mean, just having that culture is so important. I'm curious to know, you have three girls, how does this relate to your career?
Sadia Mirza:
Well, Sherri, is your father Ron Raether? Our practice group leader? Because I feel like those are the things that I have. And I have them because – and everyone knows to know at this point how much I love this man. I love Ron. Everyone knows this. But it's because what he's given to me. And I don't even know if he knows that he's done this. I think it's just who he is. But he's always made me feel like my family is the most important thing.
My daughters are – even for Ron, they are the most important thing. And like it's small things he does to let me know that that's true. It's like he can call me randomly to talk about something work-related. And if he hears my kids in the background, you can hear that he genuinely means it. He pauses and he goes, "Sadia, hold on. This isn't important. Go be with your kids. We can always catch up later." And he means it. You can hear – it's not like, "Okay, your kids are annoying me." He genuinely means, "Oh, you have your kids? This is not important. Your kids are more important. Go do that and call me when you have time."
And every time he does something like that, it makes me want to work even harder. Because I'm just like not everyone is like that. And that honestly it hasn't been my experience with everyone. I know how important that is.
Not only does Ron do that with me, like on a call just with me. But there will be times when clients will email us. And I remember, this was maybe about a year ago and I was away at a family wedding. And my family's from Pakistan. And for our weddings, there's like a whole choreographed dance day. Right? And so, for that month, I was trying to teach, back then, my seven-year-old and my 5-year-old this choreographed dance. It was like the worst time of my life. Because getting them to do that was tough. But I was so focused on that for the wedding.
And I remember clients would email us and they would reach out to me and they would CC Ron and they would have a question. And Ron would respond and he would say something like, "Oh, I'm sorry. She's with her kids right now doing a dance lesson. She'll get back to you in a second." But making it so normal.
And then the client would respond and like find it hilarious that that's going on. But it's just like he normalized the fact that I was a mom and I'm not – if it's not an urgent issue, she's doing something, but she'll get back to you. And having that kind of support and like letting it be known that I have kids and I don't have to hide them and it doesn't impact my ability to be a good lawyer, that has been the most important thing to me, I think.
And that's why I feel like if I look at my LinkedIn, like the posts, it has really shifted. I used to talk about a lot of substantive things, like the substantive areas of the law. That used to be my focus. Now my focus is it's usually every other post is about my kids. And I do that one because that's what I like talking about. But two, because I think it's very important for us to normalize the fact that we are caregivers. The fact that it's not just like one piece of our life – it is our life. It's our life, right? And it's not something I get to turn on and off. That is my life.
And so, and I incorporate that. And every time I get on a call, I want people to know now that, yeah, I'm a mom. I have kids. They might join this call. But we need to normalize that. And I have a lot of younger women on my team. One of them actually – and I'm laughing to myself because I feel like she has tried to keep secret that she had a baby. But like I've been telling.
But anyways, I'm so excited for her. And that's not a hindrance. Your family is growing. You're growing. It's going to be so great for you and it's going to be great for your career. That's what I want everyone to know, that this isn't something you have to hide anymore.
Sherri Davidoff:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and it's interesting how kids are so separate from our professional lives in our industry and in this day and age. Because my dad would bring me to work. And from the time I was four – and maybe this is child labor. I don't know. I learning to – sorry. Sorry, I outed you, dad. From the time I was four years old I was answering the phones. And then at my mom's store, I was learning like these customer-facing skills sitting at the counter. And I learned to count by putting a dozen spoons in a bag. It was a restaurant supply store.
And I feel like there's so much that kids learn by being integrated and at least like feeling like it's okay for them to be present in the work too. It's your environment. And, often, they want to understand what we do.
My husband the other day was talking to his daughter, Lizzy, because she's interested in hacking. She's interested in penetration testing. And I said, "Well, bring her to work one day." And he was like, "Oh, my God. We could do that?" And I was like, "Yeah. There's going to be some guard rails and whatnot." But a lot of what we do is demos and things like that. And there are ways that we can integrate kids and start teaching them skills, like life skills just by not pushing them away.
Sadia Mirza:
Yeah. We're in the process of – like our Orange County office and Troutman is moving. And so, I've been on the design committee for the new office and the new layout. And there are many weekends that I have to go into work when I have my kids with me.
Right now, in our current office, there's like this – it's not a closet. But it's like a room with a whiteboard and a long table. And whenever I go into the office, I tell my kids to go in there and they can play on the whiteboard. But when we were redesigning the office, I'm like, "Guys, we need a kid’s room." I don't know what whatever we want to call it. But I need a room on Saturdays. That when I come, my kids can play in there and that's going to be their space. That's what I need in this office."
And then I think we didn't officially – it's not officially called the kid’s room. But in my mind, that's exactly what it is. It needs a bean bag. It needs a couple – at least three. Because I have three girls. It needs some bean bags. We created a separate internal lounge where there'll be a couch, and a table, and a whiteboard, and a TV, and games and things where whoever works there normally can use it just as like a lounge area.
But I know the idea behind it for my mind was I need a place where I could come, and I could bring my kids, and they can hang out, and it's safe, and it's contained. And I know what's there and they're not running around. And I'm so excited about the move because I'm like, "Oh, my God. This is going to be great." If I have like a designated spot for them to be able to sit and hang out –
Sherri Davidoff:
That's huge.
Sadia Mirza:
Yeah. It's huge. And I'm like everyone – I'm sure everyone has like lounges and stuff. But like knowing that that's kind of the idea behind it, it makes me love the firm even more. That these are things that we're open to – we know that they matter. And they're very receptive to these ideas. Besides calling it the kids’ room, they're like maybe we can call it the rec room, Sadia. I was like, "Yeah. That's fine." But just know who the primary audience is of that room.
Sherri Davidoff:
Well, you're making me – I want to – can I confess something?
Sadia Mirza:
Yes.
Sherri Davidoff:
Just between us.
Sadia Mirza:
Just between us. Yes.
Sherri Davidoff:
We got an arcade here at LMG several years ago. It's a Pac-Man, old-school arcade. And the idea was to make our basement level cool. It's now called the river level. But I have to say, in the back of my mind I was like, "This will be so great." Because when I bring my kids to the office – boom. They're going to get to play Pac-Man and things like that. And they do.
And it's so great. Because if I'm like, "Hey, I got to take a call," I know they can be playing Pac-Man and chill out on the chairs there and play ping-pong or whatever. I think that's really important.
Sadia Mirza:
Yeah. Now we need to add – we need arcade games. Actually, that's what we need to add that to our budget. We need – Troutman, whoever is listening from the Orange County Office, that's what we need to add.
But the other thing that this actually made me think of is our cyber girl gang hoodies that we've been doing. One of the –
Sherri Davidoff:
I love those. I wear mine all the time.
Sadia Mirza:
Okay. Good. Me too. And one of the best things that came out of that for me was all of the requests that I got for children's sizes. It wasn't just like women. A lot of men reached out and said, "Listen, my daughter would love that." You have like youth sizes.
And whenever I made them, I selfishly would make like three youth sizes for my own girl. They always wear their cyber girl gang hoodies to school. They're telling everybody that their mom is in a gang and that's what this means.
Every time we have a new shipment, I'm like, "No. We need more youth sizes. We need more youth sizes." Because everyone is so much more vocal about it now about their kids and getting them involved or having them at least be part of kind of their professional life. And so, now whenever we order them, it's like I need like 20 youth kids one. Because everyone wants their kids to have them too.
Sherri Davidoff:
I want one. If not two yeah.
Sadia Mirza:
Yeah. No. Seriously. These are the things. And now I have a list of like – especially, the men when they reach out for about their daughters, I feel like it's so sweet. Because, again, I think the call to action – and I know you and me, Sherri, talked about it. I think men have a big role to play in that, right?
Women, I feel like we all – and I guess this is not unfair. It's totally fair to say. But I think women understand this issue a little bit more. Because I think it's true that, generally, women are the caregivers. And maybe some of that had shifted in COVID. But Ron doing that for me, I felt like it resonated with me differently because he's a male. He's leading the group. And there was something a lot very powerful about that that he can understand.
Sherri Davidoff:
You were reminding me so much of the work of Andy Ellis who wrote 1% Leadership. And I had the opportunity to speak – Andy was actually one of our panelists at Blackhead on the diversity micro talks panel. And Andy was the CSO of Akamai for years. And he ended up growing a security team that's 40% women. And that is huge.
And one of the things he talked about was that we are living in a time when a lot of those upper-tier positions are men. And this needs to be a partnership. And so, it has to be men and women working together to open those doors together. And it sounds like both of us have experienced that in different ways.
Sadia Mirza:
Yeah. I know. Troutman always tries to tell me that they're going to be 20-minute podcast. And they're never a 20-minute podcast. But I think this is true. For me, this was my first year I made partner at Troutman, right? And last year, I went to the partner retreat. And I'll tell you that it is – again, this is not an issue unique to Troutman. This is just known in big law. But in our Orange County office, we're very diverse. We're very diverse. there's a lot of women. A lot of women associates, right? You see that.
When I went to the partner retreat, I think it was eye-opening as to how many women – right? The ratio drops so much once you go up one level. That to me is when I feel like I started thinking about this even more. It's not even specific to cyber security. Although I think cyber security, just given the nature of that industry, it's a lot more prominent. But in any kind of leadership position, as you go up, the number of women goes down for the reasons that we discuss.
And so, I think – again, going back to that call to action, we have to be so much more intentional about uplifting women and doing something so that it's sustainable for them and it's not that they're making a choice, right? You don't have to pick one or the other. There's ways to do both.
Sherri Davidoff:
Yeah. And, actually, Andy Ellis talks about the Matthew effect, where the rich get richer and how that applies to this problem. Because, over time, if you miss out on some of those early career opportunities, you're not going to get into those leadership positions. I think that's a really insightful point.
And then another thing that our leadership team here at LMG pointed out was elder care, which is something that we haven't hit on yet.
Sadia Mirza:
Yes. Yeah.
Sherri Davidoff:
Yeah. Because it's not just child care. And we have a three-person management leadership team. It's myself, and then Karen Sprenger, our amazing COO. And Madison Iler, our amazing CSO. And we all work together to run this beautiful company.
And first of all, we're the only cybersecurity company I know of that is not only women-owned but has a women-led leadership team. And all three of us have experienced caregiving responsibilities. And when I was writing this article about childcare, Madison piped up and said it's not just childcare, it's elder care.
And in a lot of ways, elder care is harder because it'll hit when you're further along in your career, maybe when you're getting into those leadership positions. It's unexpected. It's not something that you might be planning for. And it could go on for a really long time. It's not like you can plan like, "Okay, they're going to go to daycare in a few years." No. This could be a commitment of 3, 5, 10 years or even longer.
And I think being able to support our team members as they go through that even when it's unexpected is so important. And elder care – I don't know if you've heard people talking about it. I think it's harder to talk about because people are like, "Oh, congratulations. You have a baby." And no one's like, "Oh – ooh, congratulations. Your parent is sick." That's not a thing.
Sadia Mirza:
Right. Right. No. That's true. It's recently come up over here and I know just being able to check in on someone just say like, "Hey." Acknowledging that you know that they're going through something I think goes a long way.
Again, it's like not having to – you don't have to hide that part of your life. Because, unfortunately, that's probably something we're all going to have to experience too, right? And so, just normalizing the human issues that we deal with all the time and talking about it more and more.
One thing I noticed is – and going back to having men involved in this discussion, them normalizing childcare and elder care responsibilities goes a long way too. If we had a lot of men saying, "Oh, it's 5pm. I got to go pick up my kids," that would make it so much easier. "It's 2pm, it's 3pm, I got to go do this."
And we do, we have a lot – and I talked about Ron a million times because he has three daughters. And like, very often, if you've worked with Ron, you know that very often he's going to say, "Oh, I'm with my daughter. Oh, I'm at a concert with my daughter. Oh, I'm doing this with my daughters." They are a part of his life. And that normalizes it for me. And I said, "Oh, yeah. I have daughters too. I have daughters too and I don't have to hide them." And so, it's just – at some point, I think every other podcast is just basically how much I love Ron and that's all I talk about. And so –
Sherri Davidoff:
Sadia, did I tell you what I told my son before we got on the call yesterday?
Sadia Mirza:
Sherri Davidoff:
We were meeting early in the morning and I thought you were on the East Coast. I was like, "Oh, our kids are probably off at school." My son was home because he had a dentist appointment a few minutes later and I was like, "Okay, buddy. You can't come into my office. I'm going to be on the phone with somebody outside. And you can't like open the door."
And now like, "Oh, it would have been totally fine."
Sadia Mirza:
Sherri, yes, we were talking about this too. Right? Because it was like 7am and I was like, "Okay, you guys all need to be downstairs." And I'm like, "No, you don't." When I thought about the topic about what we were going to discuss, I was like, "No. You guys all come back upstairs."
But, no, I still – we still hold – even though it's easy to talk about to do, it's very hard to put into practice. I still go out of my way to hide my kids on calls and like try and tell them to stay very quiet. And like constantly muting myself on a call to run upstairs to yell at them to say stop talking and then going back downstairs and acting like I've been sitting here the whole time.
I mean we just need to keep talking about it. We just have to keep talking about it. Because I agree, COVID made it easier because it brought it to light. And now people know that this is something that they deal with.
Sherri, I know – well, one, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast and talking about this issue. Because it's not spoken about enough. And maybe we need to do another one to talk more and more about it until people realize how very important it is. I told you this before, Sherri, the whole purpose behind this podcast is to highlight people like yourselves in the industry. And I specifically love talking to people who have these types of thoughts, or values, or ideas that they want to share that aren't being discussed enough.
But it's also about highlighting the people that we think are just amazing in the industry either personally or professionally. And so, one question that I always end with is who would you select for us to highlight next? Who do you think is just incredible either professionally or personally in this industry?
Sherri Davidoff:
My two unsung heroes are Karen Sprenger and Madison Iler. They run this company with me. They're also just incredibly experienced and talented professionals. And they're very much behind the scenes just kicking butt and doing an amazing job every day. I definitely think they're worth talking to. And, yeah, I look up to them.
Sadia Mirza:
Okay. Well, I hope that they're listening to this. Because when someone – when you get a shout-out like that, it just means a lot. Right? And so, I hope they're listening to this. I hope I get a chance to speak to them soon.
I was going to say for our listeners, the article that we reference, we're going to try to link it, Sherri, to the Troutman site where the podcast will be posted. I encourage everyone to download the article, print the article, frame the article, read it over and over again before you go to bed every single night. And really think about what changes we could make as an industry to address this issue and make it a little bit easier on caregivers.
Sherri, with that, thank you so much again for being on this. It's really been a pleasure. I appreciate it.
Sherri Davidoff:
Thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. It's been very meaningful.
Sadia Mirza:
Okay. And that's a wrap of this episode. For all of our listeners, we look forward to the next one. Thanks so much.
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